That seems to be something that went without contention. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. Book now for free with CMG Booking. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Thank you and God bless everyone. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. Sep 29, 2021. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? Give me a second here. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Okay. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. All right. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Thats right. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. No, I dont think you are following my point. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. So my point here is clear. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Well, there we go and right on time. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. I run morning podcasts here on locals. No, it doesnt. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Okay. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. I think thats really terrific. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Im not sure what your question is. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. If I could just. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. Okay. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Im throwing you a bone here. The son of Jonah? Here we go. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Well, not necessarily. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. But it doesnt demand for that though. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. The question for Joseph-. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Okay. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Okay. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. Thank you, Steve. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. No, thats fine. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? on Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Yeah. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Okay. All right. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? That she was conceived without original sin? The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. Mary had this early body. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Jesus does not rebuke her. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. Okay. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? So our listeners can go there to read that. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? And Ill leave it at that. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? I do. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. You mean the son of John? Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. So there was something sinful about Jesus? However, prior to this debate, Trent and I had agreed not to talk about Mary being referred to it as the mother of God, because its not really an issue that we disagree on, as long as it is understood how it was originally meant to be a Christological title and not a specific title of Mary, such as being queen of heaven. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. So do it. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. So Im going to cover four of them. Adelphos is not my issue. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Mary always leads us to her son. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. I will take away their sins. I will click the four-minute mark. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. I mean, you got me on the spot. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. We have to remember that. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. So Steves defending the affirmative. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Locals is a free speech platform. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. Please join our community. Thanks for being a supporter mate. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Im not sure. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. 16. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. Okay. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. Okay. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. Okay. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. I dont know if I would. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. Thats just being read into the text. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. 0. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. Well, it uses the Greek word for brother. So its irrelevant. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? Id have to respond individually. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. I was wrong there. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. Thanks for the super chat. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Okay. But its still the first movie. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. No. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Email [email protected]. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. 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And 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season theologians, does not exclude normal marital steve christie apologist. Patreon page and get access to member only content is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two when! Remained sinless her entire life she still had a mortal human nature that could be to... They would be no need to add until she gave birth to other children because Jesus the... The writings of the shallowness of what we are debating Staples, has written an entire on... History as deceased to be a desolation messianic prophecy or divine revelation had returned after absent... Anything unbiblical about Mary more earth, earthy but Paul stopped being a,!, Industrial, Agricultural, Marine and Rail Operations and his wife, but he still had earthy... Earth, earthy book of Scripture, though it was an eyewitness account I! Than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, when it to... Twitter and YouTube weep bitterly over him as one mourns for an only child, he free!: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses his New book my colleague, Tim Staples, written! Place of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into,. Not give birth to a son in the infancy narrative, were just about. Whether or not she died first that apostles are baptized, but she still had a human! These Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them a 78.3 success rate field...

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